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Author Topic: New EU online selling regulations June 2014  (Read 8723 times)

MrsH

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 04:56:22 PM »
Hello!

I'm going to wade into this debate as I'm currently trying to write an article about the new Consumer Contracts regulations that replaced the DSRs on the 13th too, but I'm guessing it's the same legislation as the EU directive?! I think, do I think maybe, or hum not!! yes it sounds the same but under a different title.

Do I care well no! should I care, guess I have no choice. I'm with you Emma it's a right pain in the backside for all those great online retailers who care about their customers and the bad ones, well they just won't bother amending their practises because hey they don't follow the current ones! So wheres the point.

Ooh ok, rant over.

Out of interest does anyone else know if this Directive on Consumer rights is exactly the same as the new Consumer Contracts regulations? They both came into effect on the 13th June.

Interestingly, the returns issue has gone to 14 calendar days (so not working days), so it's not bad as it looks as previously it was 7 working days, which if you include the weekend is 9 calendar days anyway.

Man I hate having to write about this stuff as it's so easy to get it wrong!

MrsH

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 05:29:06 PM »
Okay so I'm just reading through the EU directive and as it turns out it's the guidance document provided by the EU that forms the basis for the new regulations that each member country is meant to write and implement by the 13th June. So the Directive and the Consumer Contracts Regulations technically are the same thing!

It's the Consumer Contracts Regulations (CCR) that is the UK legislation, here's the link https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf Sorry the link's so long! it's to the pdf version of the document.

Emma I've found the info about providing information and you don't have to send personalised T&C's as long as the email with your T&C's has gone to a persons email account.

Here's the paragraph copied and pasted from the CCR doc

G. Providing Information

Provision on a durable medium

1. The purpose of the ‘durable medium’ requirement is to ensure that, should a dispute arise at some point after the contract has been concluded, both parties have a record about what was agreed. The burden of proof that the relevant information has been provided rests with the trader. A durable medium allows the consumer to access information directed personally to them, in an unchangeable format for as long as they might reasonably need it.

2. A durable medium allows, amongst other things, for information to be addressed personally to the recipient. Although information should be personally directed to the consumer, (for instance in an email, letter or personal account) the information itself need not be exclusive or tailored to the consumer, in the same way that a letter directed specifically to a customer can include standard terms and conditions.

I am a trader selling online and off-premises. I am trying to move away from a paper-based system. How can I meet my obligations to provide information on a durable medium?

3. The regulations require confirmations for distance contracts and off-premises contracts to be provided on a durable medium4. The confirmation is additional to the information you must give the consumer before making the sale. You do not need to include this information in your confirmation if you have already provided it on a durable medium pre contract.

4. There are a number of ways in which the trader can meet their obligation to ensure that they provide the relevant information in a durable medium.

o A letter is a durable medium. Sending it is provision of that medium. Provided the trader took reasonable care to send it to the address given to them by the consumer the trader is likely to have met their obligation.

o A CD/DVD is a durable medium. Sending it is provision of that medium. Even if the consumer does not have a CD/DVD player, the information has still been provided.

o An email is a durable medium. However, information contained via link to a website which may change, and which is embedded in an email is not. Sending the email to the address given by the consumer is provision of that medium. If the consumer does not look at their email account, or deletes the email, the information has nevertheless been provided on the durable medium.

o A text message is a durable medium. Sending it to the consumer’s notified telephone number is provision.

o A ‘personal account’ (such as those used by phone companies for online billing) on a trader website can be, or include an aspect which is a durable medium. It must be capable of storing information personal to the consumer, in a format which will be left unchanged and remain accessible to the consumer for a reasonable amount of time. Placing the information in the relevant part of the personal account is the provision of the information on the durable medium so that if the consumer wants to see it they have to log into it (in a similar way that they have to open emails, a letter or a text).

4 For off-premises contracts the consumer must agree to receive information on a durable medium other than paper.

Phew, straightforward then!  :o


shelleym

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 05:35:54 PM »
From what I can see they are one and the same. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

Interesting lot of FAQ helps with some of the things we were talking about.

Shelley

shelleym

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2014, 05:36:48 PM »
We both posted at more or less the same time!!

Shelley


ejralph

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 09:10:21 AM »
Crazy then that you can supply the terms and conditions on a CD Rom, irrespective that the customer might not have facilities to read it - and you've met your obligations.

Yet, provide a link to a PDF that they can save, print or whatever - and no, you've not met the obligations.

Crazy stuff.

Looks like I'll have to be printing up the Ts&Cs to include in people's parcels since there literally is no easy way to edit our order confirmation emails to include this stuff. I guess I can stuff it into the order despatched email, but its pretty clunky

Emma
Emma from Sunny Sussex, UK
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shelleym

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 11:05:08 AM »
I'm just going to email it to them. That way it's to an individual person.

I still haven't worked out what I what I need to show/explain at craft fairs though. And I have a feeling house parties work in the same way as 'off premises' and will need all the T&C explained and a returns form!! Since I haven't done a house party for ages I'm not that bothered ATM but coming the autumn I'm likely to have more and need to work out what I should be doing.

I THINK for fairs all I need to do is make sure I have all my contact details available. I THINK that is!!

Shelley



ejralph

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 04:10:41 PM »
bleeped if I know Shelley - I just skimmed it for the distance selling areas I think.

Maybe you just need to print up your T&C and returns forum and include it with any sale? Add in some marketing bumpf whilst you're at it!

Emma
Emma from Sunny Sussex, UK
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Helenka

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2014, 01:38:12 PM »
Boy this is all rather a faff. No wonder so many people are fed up with the EU. I have changed it from 7 to 14 days and have the most important info for customer - i.e. their right to cancel and return goods within 14 days of receipt as footnote in my letters that go with every order. So now I have to create a pdf of my T&Cs as well? It's a lot of faff. People can't check a tick box when ordering - I asked my web designer when he created the website and he said the platform didn't allow it. Personally I am not fond of ticking boxes - as most T&Cs are ridiculously long I tend not to read them (maybe that's why the new law insists on a printable copy). I guess I best copy my own T&Cs and convert them into pdf I then email to customer. I rarely do craft fairs - sometimes have home parties - and the customers tend to be loyal shoppers. So won't worry too much about that. Red tape is really killing small businesses.
Jewellery designer at wwww.helenkawhitedesign.oc.uk and journalist owned by a very demanding moggie.

ejralph

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2014, 09:50:03 AM »
I don't think you need to create a PDF if you are emailing a copy of your Ts&Cs to customers when they order.

As for the check boxes issue. I have a box people need to check when placing an order to say they have read and agreed to the Terms and conditions. I didn't used to have it - like you, found those things annoying. But from a business point of view, experience taught me that we need it. Because the odd customer out there will try to make the seller pay for their own reluctance to read things properly before ordering.

I've had instances where overseas customer have ordered stuff, then complained to me that it didn't arrive the next day for their wedding, or customers that have tried to blackmail me with threats that they would blacken my name online if I didn't do this, that or the other for them. And I'm won't have that sort of behaviour from people. At EJR Beads, the customer is NOT always right. Whoever is right is right - if its my bad, I will pay and step up to make things right. But if it's the customer's bad because they couldn't be bothered to read that we are based in the UK or that orders take X amount of time to arrive - well, that is their mistake and they pay.

The checkbox is the only way of pushing that point home and encouraging people to be proactive in understanding their side of the contract they are entering into.

Most people - 99.9 percent, don't need it. But that tiny minority that do can cause an awful lot of expensive and time-wasting problems for sellers.

Consequently, I am a lot more sympathetic now when I see those boxes on other websites too because I know the other side and some of the ridiculous stuff you can get from some people if you don't make them acknowledge that they are responsible for reading the terms they are entering into before entering into them.

(Actually, my mum is TERRIBLE for this. She has so many disappointing shopping experiences online and on ebay simply because she won't blinking read the info before hitting the Buy button! I've had many a heated debate with her, each time she gets on her high horse about something and starts Negging an ebay seller for her own cockup! I think she is slowly starting to learn to read the descriptions and so on though!!!)

Emma
Emma from Sunny Sussex, UK
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Helenka

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 01:04:00 PM »
Emma I fully understand - I asked for a check box and it was not doable on my website. However I point at my T&Cs everywhere. And I guesss really the best thing for me now is to copy them and convert them into pdf and just send them to customers who order. Then they can't say they didn't get them:)
Jewellery designer at wwww.helenkawhitedesign.oc.uk and journalist owned by a very demanding moggie.

ejralph

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2014, 10:15:51 AM »
Sending a link to a PDF isn't allowed - you have to either email them the pdf file, or the text of the terms into the body of that email. Or print them to paper and include with the order.

Crazy I know, but they need to be sent a copy of the terms as they are when they ordered that cannot be changed by you later.

so a link to a web page or PDF won't work because you could, theoretically, change the terms later without them knowing and it wouldnt be a fair record of the contract they entered into

Emma
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AfroByte

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Re: New EU online selling regulations June 2014
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2014, 03:01:55 PM »
This is just such a load of rubbish.

Since June I have bought loads of stuff online. I have not received any separate documents on the T&C's etc. in the parcel, nor via email. I bet many people don't even know about the new rules. I sure did not until I opened my new Etsy shop.